Alex Gibney, who has made some of the defining features of our time, is the producer of an inflammatory docu about the controversial, long-serving Israel prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

In The Bibi Files, Gibney and director Alexis Bloom offer devastating dissection of the right-wing leader. They build a case against him from never-before-seen leaked interrogation tapes during Netanyahu’s ongoing corruption trial about alleged gifts in return for political favors.

ALEX GIBNEY  This whole thing starts with a leak. It was mid-2023, when a source sends me this footage totally out of the blue. Right away I knew it was special. But now I had this material and I need to raise money but I can’t tell funders anything. I can only say ‘I’ve got something good and it’s a secret but can you give me money anyway?’

How did those conversations go

GIBNEY They were certainly difficult. But we did get some to say “we trust you to go forward and see how you do.” And then we had other people come on board and then Alexis came on board.

BLOOM When Alex calls, you know you have something so my first reaction was yes even without seeing it. It was important to keep it confidential for a long time. If you start announcing it then it’s like “hey, come to the office, Mossad.” Even anyone who participated — I didn’t want to tell them too much because I didn’t want to endanger them.

You intended to make this film about Netanyahu judicial reform

What did folks say?

BLOOM Half the people there thought this was even more important because now this morally corrupt man was in charge of running a war. And half the people–mainly men in security forces– said we can’t criticize a leader running a war. Maybe to local press you can. But with foreign news outlets there was anxiety. It was clear to me this was still the same story — only now with much higher stakes.

The trial and the war

GIBNEY  Netanyahu will do whatever he needs to stay in power because then he won’t be able to keep delaying his trial as easily. And to stay in power he has to do what far-right coalition members and government members Bezalel] Smotrich and [Itamar] Ben-Gvir say because otherwise they leave the coalition and he loses power. They want a war that doesn’t end.

GIBNEY Exactly. Because after all the corruption allegations came to light, more moderate elements wouldn’t have anything to do with Bibi.

Israeli people have had enough of Netanyahu

GIBNEY There’s a rage underneath and the country is deeply divided but to stay in power he’s increasing tension — to stay in Israel he’s steering the ship into the reef. It’s a little like George Bush and his war on terror — you say you have to keep going until there are no more terrorists, which is a recipe for permanent war.

BLOOM No question, it’s very empowering to be in the protests, remarkable people are fighting.

GIBNEY It’s not so simple that when Netanyahu goes everything’s fine. But so long as he is in power nothing will change. So it’s up to the people of Israel to figure out how they need to put pressure to get him out.

Netanyahu and Trump are often compared

Populist-outrage model

GIBNEY I’d call it tribalist outrage. You play to tribalist sympathies because of what it gives you in the short term. And it works until people realize that appeal is actually endangering the country long-term. There are political models of authoritarianism evident throughout the world right now and I think this [Netanyahu situation] fits with that pattern.

BLOOM Watching the tapes what strikes me is Bibi’s seeming unending ability to deny any knowledge of anything going back ten years. It’s a level of delusional acrobatics I would find impressive if it wasn’t so morally bankrupt.

GIBNEY There’s a line in the film that “to be a good liar you have to have a good memory.” Bibi solves the problem by just always saying he doesn’t remember.

GIBNEY Having been lied to many times by powerful people I’d say the best liars are the ones who believe in the moment they’re not lying. He’s clearly great actor but he also needs to construct belief system that lets him inhabit the role.

Sara Netanyahu and the cops 

She seems to be driving decisions, even on policy matters

GIBNEY That was one of the film’s revelations–so much of what Bibi does is provoked by his family. For all of his bluster and aggressive posturing he’s a very weak man.

BLOOM There’s a line by Ami Ayalon, former head of the Shin Bet, that I’m desperate to find a place for in the final cut of the film. Ayalon said — and remember he’s professional analyst of human behavior — that Netanyahu is the best at detecting threats because he’s always afraid. That’s how he’s survived so long, because he’s so good at detecting threats.

BLOOM Because he’s so consumed with personal threats

Distribution, taking political risks 

GIBNEY There’s a calculus of “Oh my God, anything having to do with Israel and Gaza is going to raise a ruckus so better not to deal with it.” Even though everyone is interested — even though the audience wants it. Now, not all networks are the same, and our hope is there’s someone out there with the cojones to say, “yes, it’s important to serve our viewers by giving them dramatic and informative content.” So we’ve got a plan and a backup plan and a backup plan to the backup plan to get this out.

If you’re not in top tier of streamers, your reach is limited

GIBNEY That’s true but if you look at other periods of media new players always come on board and new distribution mechanisms pop up to deliver audiences the stories they want. And I think audiences want this.